Teachers in Transition – Episode 254 An Interview with Dr Shaun Woodly of Teach, Hustle, Inspire

In this episode of Teachers in Transition, Vanessa Jackson welcomes Dr. Shaun Woodly, award-winning educator, speaker, and founder of Teach Hustle Inspire. Dr. Woodly dives deep into the science of behavior, explaining how classroom challenges are often misunderstood signals—not personal failures.

Together, they unpack:

·         The five survival drives that fuel student behavior

·         Why fear-based classroom management fails—and what to do instead

·         How to reframe “class clown” behavior as a cry for belonging

·         Strategies for fostering student engagement through curiosity and psychological safety

·         Why behavior changes with environment, and how to use that to your advantage

If you've ever felt burned out by behavior management or unsupported by your administration, this episode is your permission slip to do things differently 

Connect with Dr. Shaun!
On LinkedIn
Instagram and Threads - @teachhustleinspire
Check out his LinkTree!
His website at teachhustleinspire.com – check out the books tab to find his books!

Favorite Quote:

"If you can understand the conditions that influence someone to feel better, you'll get them to do better." – Dr. Shaun Woodly

If today’s episode struck a chord—maybe you love teaching but hate the stress—you don’t have to figure it all out alone. Whether you're deciding to stay, shifting roles, or planning an exit strategy, I'm here to help.

📥 Download the FREE 5Ps Guide to help with you decision at TeachersinTransition.com
 

And if you found this episode helpful, share it with a teacher friend—because none of us should have to navigate burnout alone.

Connect with Vanessa

Vanessa@TeachersinTransition.com
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Visit the homepage at TeachersinTransition.com to learn more!

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The transcript to this podcast was create by AliceIO and is found on the episode’s homepage at Buzzspout

Transcript

Are you a teacher who is feeling stressed out and overwhelmed? Do you worry that you're feeling symptoms of burnout - or are you sure you've already gotten there? Have you started to dream of doing something different or a new job or perhaps pursuing an entirely different career - but you don't know what else you're qualified to do? You don't know how to start a job search, and you just feel stuck. If that sounds like you, I promise you are not alone. My name is Vanessa Jackson; and I am a career transition and job search coach, and I specialize in helping burnt out teachers just like you deal with the overwhelmingly stressful nature of your day-to-day job and to consider what other careers might be out there waiting for you. You might ask yourself, What tools do I need to find a new career?  Are my skills valuable outside the classroom?  How and where do I even get started?  These are all questions you deserve answers to, and I can help you find them.  I’m Vanessa Jackson. Come and join me for Teachers in Transition.  

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Sean Woodly, who talks about how to better work with students so that the behavior does not become one of the limiting factors in your classroom. Because the reality is, as you sit here thinking, should I stay, or should I shift to a different place, or should I leave the classroom?
 
 Sometimes you want to stay. And if that's what you want, that's what I want to help you do. So today on Teachers in Transition, I would like to welcome to the podcast Dr. Shawn Woodly. Dr. Sean Woodly has taught for 15 years in Title 1 schools and at the university level. He has been the teacher of the year and won awards from several local school boards.

He does his work mostly now training at the intersection of teacher training and human behavior, which, as many of us are aware of, is one of the driving forces of stress and overwhelm in the classroom. So welcome to teachers in transition. Dr. Sean Woodly.

Dr Shaun

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and have this conversation. Looking forward to it.

Vanessa

Excellent. I want to start by having you just talk about your time in K-12.

00:01:11 Dr Shaun

Absolutely. I got into teaching. I did not intend to go into teaching. I was not one of those people who grew up and said, from a very young age, I'm going to be a teacher. That was not me. I grew up in, surrounded by art and music. That was, I was very creative, younger.

And so being a musician in my church, being a musician in the school band and all of those things. I swore up and down that I was going to school to study music and going on tour. That did not happen. And I got some really sound advice that really changed the trajectory of a lot of things for me personally.

It was my senior year, I was taking an advanced music theory course. And my teacher at the time, he told me when I was explaining my college plans, he said, I think you should maybe just give yourself a bit of a backup plan, if you will, just in case you don't get picked up to go on tour right out of college.

Just so maybe you can study your music, but why don't you study education as well? And that is what I did. And so, I signed up for a five-year program. I went to an HBCU, Hampton University. It was the best decision that I made. Studying music, studying education, got into my education courses and was like, wow, this is actually, it's pretty 

At the time, I did not realize it, but my interest and my love for just understanding human nature, understanding the interactions that we have with one another, kind of started at that point. Upon graduation, I finished a five-year program with my bachelor's and master's. I began my teaching career, and I taught in a school district that was maybe about 30 minutes from where I went to college.

And it was one of those districts that was, quote unquote, on the other side of the tracks, if you will. To say it was a learning process would be an understatement. When I got into the classroom, my learning experience wasn't like some others, because I know a lot of people who get into the classroom and they may struggle with behavior management from an overwhelm standpoint, but it was actually the opposite for me.

I overwhelmed the children and I did that because what I was told and what I was taught and what I listened to very clearly was that when you get into the classroom with those students, and I'm saying that with the air quotes, you don't smile till November. You have to teach and rule with an iron fist.

And so I did literally just that. And I didn't have a lot of classroom management issues. I did not have a lot of disruptions and things of that nature. And on the surface it looked good. Hindsight being 20 20, it was actually quite terrible of me because I'm sitting in my office and one day I got a call from.

I was teaching middle school at the time and I got a call from a sixth grader, her parent, and she said that my daughter is scared in your classroom. So I overcompensated and I took it entirely too far with what I thought, quote unquote, those kids needed and used fear as a teaching mechanism.

And for those that may not be familiar, and I think it will make sense, you can't learn, you can't focus when your brain is worried about protecting itself. And so that was a wake up call for me. That was something that I had to be honest with myself and self reflective and in knowing that that's not my personality, it's not the type of person that I was, but it's who I thought I was supposed to be in order to have success as an educator in a tough school.

And so I made some changes. Long story short, within a year I was able to help my students literally transform and turn around what we did to the point where we got blue ribbon state recognition for just the level of performance that we had. That same year, I was able to get teacher of the year.

Like everything turned around literally from that one phone conversation.

00:05:02 Vanessa

Wow, we've all gotten that memo. I think at some point about being strict. And how did you find that balance between being strict enough but not too strict?

00:05:14 Dr Shaun

It took a lot of me trying to understand what it was that they needed. But I know that I couldn't just totally take my hands off the reins. That was not happening. That was not an option. Further, as I began to go back and understand the research, what I did, I approached it more like parenting.

And I wasn't a parent at the time, but how I was raised and what my parents did in my household, it was firm. It was also not necessarily fair. I don't want to use that word because I didn't always think that things were fair like my parents job and even my. I'm a parent now.

My job is not so that my children or at the time my students perceive it as fair. I'm here as a teacher, help you learn. As a parent, I'm not here to make you happy. I'm here to make sure that you're safe and that you're the best version of yourself. And that's not always going to appear as fair.

And so it was a balance of what the research calls like a warm demander, where you can hold someone to high levels of expectations. You can be firm, you can implement consequences at the appropriate time, logical consequences, of course. But you can also do this in a way where that student, that child, understands that you care about them and have their best interest in mind.

00:06:33 Vanessa

Slightly side note, I remember when Facebook came out and of course the students wanted to rush to friend us all and we all had to put up those barriers. And I remember telling the kids, Facebook seems to have changed the meaning of what a friend is. I am friendly, but I cannot be your friend.

00:06:52 Dr Shaun

Yes, yes. And that, that is one of the distinctions because with the best of intentions, I believe that some feel that is the best way is to be the friend as opposed to an authority. You can be friendly in an authoritative role. And that has everything to do with the expectations that you hold for students and holding them to meet those expectations and demanding more of them, even if they don't see it in themselves.

00:07:20 Vanessa

One of the concerns I know that so many teachers have now is that they feel like there is a lack of discipline. They can try to implement that in their classroom, but then they're not feeling supported at a higher level. So what tips might you be able to share through your experiences in navigating that little tightrope?

00:07:42 Dr Shaun

There's a few layers to this. One is accepting that there are certain things and when I say it out loud, it's going to make perfect sense. But sometimes, sometimes I feel like we just need to be reminded there are certain things that are in our control and certain things that we can influence and certain things that are just totally out of our control.

Parents is a big part of the discussion, even to a certain extent, district and or administrative support, about student behavior in the learning environment. From the instructional standpoint of the teacher in that classroom, there's nothing really that you can do about parent support and control. And there's very little influence, you know, within reason, that you can do to influence what maybe an administrator or the district can do.

Sure, you can go to meetings and voice your opinion, but the impact of that may not be what you're looking for. What I try to help educators do is to understand the foundational principles about what drives humans, and in this case students, to do what it is that they do. Many of us in the learning environment, we're not taught, we're not exposed to what it is that we truly need to understand about student behavior.

Give you an example in a recent workshop, I was explaining to the teachers and the leaders there. I kind of frame it as a behavioral operating system. Like, there are certain structures, there are certain drives that have guided the human species basically for very, very, very long time. And those drives, there are five of them.

It's a drive to belong in a - be a part of a group, to be autonomous, to master something, you know, for a sense of mastery and learning, for safety and for meaning and purpose. Those five essential survival drives had guided our existence as to why we are still here. Those are literally baked and hardwired into every decision that we make, whether we realize it or not.

Every behavior, every thought process is trying to is a result of one of those drives in some way, shape or form, good, bad, or indifferent. When you understand what drives human behavior, and then the subsequent thought processes that come from that behaviors in the classroom start to make a little more sense, and you start to understand how you can influence the positive behaviors and.

And stop reacting to the negative ones. And here's what I mean. Many times what we're seeing in the learning environment from a behavior standpoint with the students are negative behaviors. But those are negative behaviors in response to something. They are not random. And that's what's hard sometimes to accept. Like, for example, you let me know when you were in the classroom, or maybe for anyone listening to this right now.

Have you ever had that experience where you see a student behave one way in one classroom, and then they'll go right next door and be somebody totally different. Like, has it ever happened to you?

00:10:49 Vanessa

Absolutely. Being a band director for so much of my career, I often saw the best side of the child.

00:10:57 Dr Shaun

And that is exactly my standpoint. You'll see a student who behaves and displays the appropriate characteristics, the intention and giving things the attention and focus that it needs in one classroom, but then go into another and it's almost like they have flipped the switch off to become some. Somebody totally different. And what I want us to start to really understand and accept is that the behavior is hugely dictated by the environment in which you operate.

00:11:28 

If you want people to display specific behaviors, you have to understand the conditions that elicit those behaviors. I'll give you an example of what I mean more so for us as adults. Many of us have had the experience of shopping in one place versus shopping in another. I often kind of compare. But if you think of like an example of like your Walmart versus your Target, okay, Walmart and Target are very common.

All things being equal, all, you know, beliefs and so forth aside, they are very common structures that a lot of people can relate to. Many people will ask, I'll ask teachers sometimes, have you ever been to a Walmart? Have you ever been to a Target? Most people can relate to it. And I asked them, why does Target exist?

And I'll pose the question, meaning that Walmart and Target, they have a lot of the same things. There are some differences, but they have a lot of the same things. But you'll have people that prefer to go in Target over Walmart. And I ask them why, and they'll give me the answers and they'll say, all of these things, all of which are true, by the way.

Technically speaking, Target is objectively higher in price than Walmart. Technically speaking, Target, like, really should be out of business because they charge more for the same exact things. Yet and still you have people that will drive past a Walmart and go into Target. And yes, you might say to yourself, well, I'm here for a tube of toothpaste, but then you'll go to the counter at Starbucks and spend $12 on a latte.

And then you'll take your time and casually walk around. And then by the time you get to the register and you start swiping and scanning, $230 later and, and you're perfectly fine with that. And it happens all the time. And there's one simple reason for that. It's because environment dictates how you behave, because you would not have done the same thing in Walmart because it makes you feel different.

If you can understand the conditions that influence someone to feel better, you'll get them to do better. And that's why students behave differently in different environments. It's simply, and there's a lot to this, but at its surface, when they feel better, they do better.

00:13:44 Vanessa

So, what are some ways that a teacher can implement that into the classroom? On the lines of the theory of we lower the behavior issues in the classroom, we lower the teacher stress level.

00:13:55 Dr Shaun

Of course, of course it begins with understanding. Let me go back to those survival drives I mentioned. A need to belong, autonomy, mastery, safety, and meaning. It's almost reverse engineering to find out what the need that is trying to be met is. I'll give you an example. Belonging is a big one. We are highly, highly social animals.

The need and this drive to belong to a group has helped us to survive for a very, very, very long time. That is why being lonely, being socially excluded, it triggers literally the same parts of the brain as physical pain. And so, when you have a student that does not feel connected either to you as that teacher or to their peers, you are going to get maladaptive behaviors that, that are trying to meet that need.

That need does not go anywhere just because they're in a classroom. So they're going to try to meet that need in the best way that they know how in that moment. That is where you get your class clown behavior. That is where you get students talking when they're not supposed to be talking and a bunch of other socially related types of behaviors.

So if you know that you have a class clown, if you know that you have someone who chit chats when they're not supposed to, and it's a sign, and there's more to it, but it's a sign that that drive to belong and that drive to interact with others is not being met in some way, shape or form.

That's a signal that with your instruction, with how you operate in your learning environment, there needs to be more opportunities for students to work with one another, for students to engage with one another so students have a stronger connection and or engage with you. And what happens a lot of times is when those behaviors surface and this is not making an excuse for the students, but I us to irrationalize it, those behaviors surface.

We put out that fire, but never diagnose it. And so it happens again. And then we put out that fire, we move the student, we write them up, we do whatever it may be that the handbook or whatever your policies and procedures may call for, but we still never solve the problem. That student is not randomly just calling out.

That student is not randomly just making jokes. That student is not randomly just talking. They're trying literally in real time, in a maladaptive way to satisfy a drive that their survival brain is telling them that they need. And those things a lot of times are just inherently not built into the school. School is inherently isolating.

We test by ourselves, we work by ourselves. Like it's built separately. And if you don't have that awareness of how that social drive is a part of your students now, it's stronger in some than others. Definitely. We've all seen that. But that is a driving force of each and every one of those students.

And you just have some due to executive function and a couple of other contributing factors that are just better at controlling it than others.

00:16:51 Vanessa

So in a sense, we're looking for different tactics to address behavior instead of the same one over and over. Because the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, which might be what's driving us crazy in the classroom.

00:17:07 Dr Shaun

And these, a lot of times are strategies that we're taught to use and they're reinforced. We're taught that if you have a student that is talking, you issue this consequence. If you have a student that is displaying, I'm using this class clown because I think it's one a lot of people can relate to.

But we have this bank of consequences and. Or responses from which we pull from. And we just randomly may choose because it's all. It's all we've been given. And it may help in that moment, but it does not solve the problem.

00:17:37 Vanessa

Can you share an example of a time when you really went outside the box to address one of those behavior needs? Because I guess they're not really issues. They're needs, aren't they?

00:17:47 Dr Shaun

They most definitely are. I'll tell you this. I'll address another specific need. And it's a survival drive. And it's connected to this need for mastery and meaning. It's kind of dynamic because they kind of intersect. When I say the need and the survival drive of mastery, meaning that it helped humans to survive by learning.

You had to learn how to make tools. You had to learn how to care for your family. You had to learn where it is that you can plant certain crops. Like, you had to learn all of these things as a survival mechanism. Meaning you had to understand, not meaning in the sense of purpose that's a part of it, but you had to Understand meaning, as in how one object relates to another, and cause and effect, that was an important survival tool for a lot of our ancestors.

So what happens with that is when you understand that the need to learn and to make sense of something with meaning, with cause and effect, then you can take that information and understand that because that need is there, it triggers certain cognitive mechanisms that are a result of that. Let me say this another way.

In a workshop, I use the example of some of my favorite TV shows. So sometimes when I'm home, I like to decompress. One of my favorite decompression shows, there's a couple of them, but I like Law and Order. A lot of people have seen at least one episode or two of Law and Order, and everyone knows that SVU is the best version.

Like, that's not up for debate. That's fine. So I ask if they've seen an episode or two. And I really try to point out that if you really start to examine from a logical perspective those episodes, you start to realize that there's a formula, and they're all pretty much following the same exact formula.

That show has been on. I want to say it's in season 26 now, something like that. In each of those seasons, it has almost 30 episodes. You do not keep producing a show that long if it's not impactful and effective. But it has the same formula every single episode. It starts in the criminal justice system, and you see the logo, and then it opens up to some sort of scene, and you'll see a scene, and it gives you context about a character and an issue, and then something happens, and the next thing you know, somebody's dead.

And then boom, boom, like, and it starts that way every single time. And what they do strategically is that they open a loop. They open a loop, and they leave you with this feeling of curiosity because you have this direct feeling of, well, what happened? Who did it? What most don't understand in that moment that what is happening is that feeling of curiosity.

Intrigue is an automatic response when you give someone some of the information, but not all of it, their brain automatically, because we have this survival drive for meaning and for mastery. And to close loops when that loop is opened. That is literally like the formula for curiosity, because it creates tension in the body.

It releases something called norepinephrine, and it releases dopamine at the same time because you're anticipating a reward. The reward is closing the loop. The tension causes Is the reason for the loop being open. And so you have that curiosity that Drives you to now pay attention and engage for the next almost 57 minutes as strategically, you're given clues to help you resolve the issue of find out who done it at the end.

It's a formula. What that looks like in the learning environment is we're taught, okay, today, the students will X, y, z, so forth and so on. Instead of opening with some form of curiosity, instead of opening with a way to incite intrigue a little bit and garner student attention, we're taught in a very logical, deliberate way to deliver information.

And it's very passive. And students tune out and we open the door for them without even realizing it to drift off to entertain themselves. And when you combine that with today's students who are not used to sitting in discomfort because they can swipe away that discomfort literally every two seconds on TikTok and Instagram Reels, It's a formula for disaster.

It really, really is. And sometimes people take offense. This is not to blame teachers, because I was there. This is to help us understand that human behavior is not a mystery. What it takes to engage someone and keep their attention is not a mystery. Teachers are just not taught what that.

00:22:17 Vanessa

And to bounce back to you were referring to earlier. They're taught to do the opposite.

00:22:22 Dr Shaun

Exactly. Exactly.

00:22:24 Vanessa

I want to bounce back a little bit if I can. You talked about one of the layers is accepting what is and what is not outside of our control. But as we just alluded to here, teachers do seem to take the blame for everything, whether it is within their control or not. Can you talk about perhaps what you went through, or if you have any tips for others on how to let that go when, say, administration will.

00:22:49 Dr Shaun

Not sure what I would do in that instance is what I can control. And what I can strongly influence is the performance of my students. Statistically speaking, regardless of what happens outside of your classroom, what happens in the hallway, what happened before or after class, what happens when they go home, those things are certainly contributing factors, but statistically speaking, the teacher has the most influence on that student's success or lack thereof.

Even if we don't feel like it all the time, that is in my control. When I can help my students to engage and deliver the information in a way that resonates with them. I am in control of their academic success, and I can influence their ability to focus. I can scaffold the lessons.

I can help them to engage. I can meet them where they are with the differentiated instruction. I can do all of those things because it is within my control. The way that I look at it if my students are excelling and achieving, you can't say anything to me. What is the common. And this is not as a slight to anyone who may be in an administrative role, but if I'm doing what I need to do and my students are excelling, what are we talking about here?

That's the way that I look at it. And that's what I did when my students were in my learning environment. I started off rough and I used that fear as a driving tool for how I ran my classroom. And when I got that wake up call, everything changed. And it was a learning lesson for me.

But once we got on track, my students were doing very, very well. And I didn't have those types of problems because I knew what it took to engage my students. And that's what I'm working so hard to help others do, is to understand what it takes to help your students feel seen to feel psychologically safe in that learning environment and to give it their all.

00:24:39 Vanessa

And I think I want to also clarify, what I meant by administration is that no matter what level you are at, there is a level of administration that is higher than you going all the way up to your state government. And it really does seem like whatever layer you're at, the layer above you, does not fully get what's going on.

00:24:58 Dr Shaun

Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

00:25:01 Vanessa

I do want to clarify that part. 
 
 Okay. I have a side question that I just can't leave. What instrument did you play?

00:25:08 Dr Shaun

I was a percussionist.

00:25:09 Vanessa

Percussionist. Oh, so you really got to see all the fun parts of human behavior from the pit. The percussion section is always one of the most interesting sections. And it's exactly what you were talking about. Because if you don't keep them busy, they will keep themselves busy a thousand percent. And it is never what you want them doing.

00:25:31 Dr Shaun

And these are people that like to move and tap on things.

00:25:35 Vanessa

That is an interesting key to personality. As a band director, I have always been fascinated by the fact that certain instruments display certain personality traits. And I've. If I had ever worked on my Ph.D. my thesis would have been is the personality attracted to the instrument or does the instrument create the personality or enhance it?

00:25:57 Dr Shaun

That is a wonderful research question, isn't it?

00:26:02 Vanessa

Because there are definite commonalities.

00:26:05 Dr Shaun

Absolutely. That's fascinating. I'd say you put that one away because you never know. You might decide to go back and get that one day.

00:26:11 Vanessa

Maybe. But in the meantime, my mission is to help as many teachers as I can, whether they want to stay in the classroom or go, because we are doing A big. A big work on making decisions and how do we make these decisions. And honestly, there are teachers that want to find a way to stay, and if that's what they want, then that's what I want to help them do.

So I want to thank you so much for your time on this. But before we close, tell us where we can find out more about you, how we can follow you. Do you have any good books that about you that we can read?

00:26:44 Dr Shaun

Sure, sure. I am available pretty much on all forms of social media@teach hustleinspire, on Twitter or LinkedIn. It's just my first and last name, which is Sean Woodly. And I share content there all the time. Tips, strategies, theories, ideas, and everything in between as it relates to managing student behavior and the science that drives that behavior.

You can find all those details there. I do have several books. One is called MC means Move the Class and it's how to spark engagement and motivation in urban and culturally diverse classrooms. And the other is the League of Extraordinary Educators. And it's half fiction, half nonfiction book about the secret strategies of transformational teachers.

00:27:28 Vanessa

Oh, that sounds fascinating. I love the title.

00:27:31 Dr Shaun

Thank you. Thank you. I tried to exercise a little bit of creativity when I wrote that book.

00:27:37 Vanessa

I enjoy all kinds of movie and comic book sorts of trivia and that just touches my heart that it goes in that direction.

00:27:47 Dr Shaun

Love it. I love it.

00:27:49 Vanessa

Well, I'm going to make sure that we have links to all of that, but I do want to say here on the podcast that if you are listening and you are not seeing that Shawn Woodly is spelled S H A U N W O O D L Y-  there is no “E” in that Woodly.

00:28:07 Dr Shaun

Thank you

00:28:10 Vanessa

I want to thank you so much for taking the time this morning to come on the podcast and share your insight and your wisdom. I feel that behavior is one of the biggest drainers on teacher energy and I love that you had all of this good information for people for other teachers today.

00:28:26 

Thank you so much.

00:28:28 Dr Shaun

I really appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. I can chat with another fellow musician all day, every day. Thank you for what you are doing. To have this platform for teachers and allowing them the space to make some informed decisions. It's really valuable.

00:28:44 Vanessa

I appreciate that. Thank you.

00:28:46 Dr Shaun

You're welcome.

00:28:48 Vanessa

Next week we'll jump back into our summer movie series where I am recommending a movie and using that to help my teachers who are stressed out, overwhelmed and burned out and hopefully at this time of the year are seeking a little summer relaxation and recuperation. Share this podcast with a friend if it was useful to you or helpful to you, because that's really how people learn about new podcasts and how a podcast can grow.

So if you know of any other stressed out, burned out, overwhelmed teachers, give it a share.

 That’s the podcast for today! If you liked this podcast, tell a friend, and don’t forget to rate and review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Tune in weekly to Teachers in Transition where we discuss Job Search strategies as well as stress management techniques.  And I want to hear from you!  Please reach out and leave me a message at Vanessa@Teachersintransition.com  You can also leave a voicemail or text at 512-640-9099. 

I’ll see you here again next week and remember – YOU are amazing!