Teachers in Transition – Episode 214: A Chat with Starr Sackstein and Making an Impact Outside the Classroom

In this episode, Vanessa sits down with author, Starr Sackstein to talk about her new book, “Making an Impact Outside the Classroom” which is a book that explores when teachers may have lost their joy in the classroom and who might want to look at different options.
 Vanessa shares a little hack to help you up that book count!
 
 

Links:
 Starr’s TED Talk  and YouTube channel

Her new book, Making an Impact Outside of Education in Kindle and Paperback!

Find Amazon Links to the rest of Starr’s books here.

Send your comments, stories, and random thoughts to me at TeachersinTransitionCoaching@gmail.com!  

A link to our Facebook Page! Join the conversation.

Feel free to connect with Vanessa on LinkedIn!

If you’d like to sign up with Vanessa for a Complimentary Discovery Call, head over to her calendar and sign up for a time that is convenient for you.  

The transcript of this podcast can be found on the podcasts’ homepage at Buzzsprout. 

Transcript

Are you a teacher who is feeling stressed out and overwhelmed? do you worry that you're feeling symptoms of burnout - or are you sure you've already gotten there? Have you started to dream of doing something different or a new job or perhaps pursuing an entirely different career - but you don't know what else you're qualified to do? You don't know how to start a job search and you just feel stuck. If that sounds like you, I promise you are not alone. my name is Vanessa Jackson; and I am a career transition and job search coach and I specialize in helping burnt out teachers just like you deal with the overwhelmingly stressful nature of your day-to-day job and to consider what other careers might be out there waiting for you. You might ask yourself, What tools do I need to find a new career?  Are my skills valuable outside the classroom?  How and where do I even get started?  These are all questions you deserve answers to, and I can help you find them.  I’m Vanessa Jackson. Come and join me for Teachers in Transition.  

***Hi!  And Welcome back to another episode of Teachers in Transition. I am your host, Vanessa Jackson –I am here to help you navigate the journey from stressed, under-appreciated, and burnt-out teacher to a new career that allows you margins in your life.  If you are frustrated with your current teaching position, if you are stressed, overwhelmed, and burned out you are in the right place – Welcome! Today on the podcast I have the pleasure of hosting Starr Sackstein to the program as she talks about her new book: Making an Impact Outside of the Classroom released just a couple of weeks ago and a teacher hack to help you up your book count.
 
 I am going to start with a quick hack to help you read a little more and enjoy life a little more.  Explore the world of audiobooks.   
 
 Hey! Listening is reading too! If you are trapped in traffic  (or on the treadmill!),  a book makes the time pass more quickly.   You can also listen to books as you go about those housekeeping chores to make those less unpleasant too.  Although you might enjoy housework – I dislike it as much as I did when I was eight! 
 
 I would recommend that you spend some time listening to whatever your favorite fiction is – something fun to allow your brain to rest.   I love mysteries and science fiction!  But you can also use that time to listen to books that help you transition out of the classroom.  
 
 Which segues me into our next segment with prolific author, Starr Sackstein.  I sat down with Starr to talk about her recently released book:  Making an Impact Outside of the Classroom.  Enjoy!
 
 
 

Vanessa:
Hi and welcome back. We are talking with Starr Sackstein. She has several books out, including Teaching Students to Self-Assess, From Teacher to Leader, and Ungrading. Among her roles, she is the University of Tennessee's advisor in the Women and Leadership Program for 2024, and she has taught Journalism, among other subjects. She was a teacher for 16 years and identifies as a recovering perfectionist. So, welcome to the program, Starr.

Starr:
Thanks so much, Vanessa. When I think about perfection in general, I see it as both a driver and a hinderer. When I describe myself as a recovering perfectionist, it’s because there are times I’m still pretty hard on myself. But I’ve come to understand that life is this beautiful journey of risks, mistakes, and all the things that happen along the way. If I lived my life trying to be perfect, it probably wouldn’t be as much fun. About a year and a half or two years ago, right on the heels of COVID, I participated in a 2-hour webinar or conference call with Aspire. It was focused on people who had left schools but are still working in education-adjacent roles. There was a lot of interest in what I shared during that panel, and it became clear that people were starting to feel burned out in the classroom. I have a unique journey and have managed to stay close to education without fully walking away from it. If you had asked me 10 years ago if I would ever leave teaching, I would have said no way. I loved it so much when I was in the classroom.

Vanessa:
Can you talk a little bit more about your journey out of the classroom and to where you are now?

Starr:
Sure. I spent 16 years in secondary education, mostly in high school, though I did spend some time in middle school. I taught English, social studies, humanities, and journalism, always trying to innovate. I recognized early on that traditional education wasn’t working for most kids, so I started reading, researching, and adjusting my practices to ensure my students were getting what they needed to be successful. That’s where my early books came from. I began de-centering grades in my classroom, removing them as much as I could. I took processes from my journalism classes and brought them into my traditional English classroom. It was really student-led rather than teacher-led. As I moved through that journey, I had the opportunity to write a few books about what I was doing, gave a TED talk, and then became an instructional coach. Of all the school-based jobs I had, that was definitely my favorite. Even now, as a consultant, I see myself more as an instructional coach than an outsider pushing into schools to help them with their practice. I try to be asset-based and provide positive pushes to try new things, giving people options. A lot of times, we stick to what’s traditional because we don’t know what else is out there.

Vanessa:
Teaching is certainly time-consuming, so you can’t always read as much as you’d like. I love that your early books are so practical, with chapters that teachers can read and immediately apply in their classrooms. You also moved into a leadership position as a curriculum director, but it seems that role didn’t align with your expectations?

Starr:
Yes, I moved into a leadership position as a curriculum director, K-12, and I spent a couple of years in that role. I would have hoped to stay in that role much longer, but after two years, my values weren’t aligning with the district I was in. I’m very values-driven, so if I can’t practice what I preach, I can’t do my work well. We didn’t always align, and therefore I couldn’t stay in that spot anymore. I still have the utmost respect for my colleagues in that district, and I’m still in touch with many of my teachers, but it was time to move on. I went into consulting, and then Mastery Portfolio found me. Now, I’m the CEO of that company, and we work on mastery learning all the time. I still write a lot and navigate opportunities as they arise. Sometimes, you just have to say yes when something happens, even if you don’t know what you’re really in for.

Vanessa:
There’s a whole Shonda Rhimes book about that—The Year of Yes. I love a quote you have that says, “We all have the right to grow our career.” I think sometimes teachers feel very stunted because there’s the classroom, and then there’s this nebulous thought that there might be something else, but they don’t know what. Your book is a delightful blueprint. It’s full of grids, research, and survey results showing what people have said about different jobs. You can go to specific genres, like entrepreneurship, staying in the district but not in the classroom, or jumping into something like corporate America. How would a teacher know whether they should stay in education or completely jump ship and go somewhere else?

Starr:
That’s an important question, and I don’t know that there’s one right answer. For me, there was a point where I started getting bored, even though I loved being with my kids. When I started feeling trapped in my role, I knew it was time to look for my next step. I’m someone who gets bored easily, so when I stopped feeling like I was growing as an educator, I sought new challenges. I did National Board Certification, which was a year of my life. It made me a better educator and changed my practice. When I got stuck again, I started mentoring new teachers, which I really enjoyed. But as much as teaching the same class year after year makes life easier, it can also become stagnant. Middle-career folks, especially, may find themselves on autopilot. Maybe you’ve run out of opportunities at your school, and after exhausting the committees you’re interested in, you start thinking it might be time to try something new. Maybe your school is posting for a guidance counselor or an instructional coach, and you feel connected to your community and want to reach out for those roles. But maybe you’re just burned out in general because the classroom is a lot, and post-COVID, kids aren’t the same as they were. There’s a generational shift that has made teaching a really different vibe than it was even 5-6 years ago. Once you lose your joy in the classroom, it’s a hard job to go to every day. At least, that was my experience. Once you don’t love getting up every day, you start finding excuses not to be there, and that’s not good for kids either.

Vanessa:
It can be very scary to take that risk and jump out of the classroom. How would you know it’s time to take that risk? Is there a certain feeling? What happens if that risk doesn’t pan out?

Starr:
That did happen to me. I alluded earlier to my leadership position not being what I expected. When I took that position, I fully believed I’d be there for the next portion of my career—5-10 years—really growing in that leadership role, maybe even becoming an Assistant Superintendent of Instruction. I knew I had no interest in being a building leader, but curriculum and instruction are my jam. Helping more teachers do more innovative things in their spaces was very appealing. But as I said, our values didn’t align, so I had to remove myself from that situation. At the end of my time there, I actually had a medical situation that required surgery, and I was out on medical leave for four weeks. That time gave me clarity, and although it was scary to leave a well-paying job with great benefits, I wasn’t happy. I believe you should be happy in the work you’re doing. Not every second of every day, but overall, you need to be excited about the work. Once that passion wanes, it’s time to investigate. Maybe you don’t leave right away, but you take on a side hustle or start experimenting in different spaces. Then, you have to rip the Band-Aid off and take the risk. If it doesn’t work out, you can always go back to a school. Highly qualified teachers are always in demand, in my opinion. The skills you acquire as an educator are extremely marketable everywhere.

Vanessa:
I feel like a lot of teachers think they’re just going to come out of the classroom and move into instructional design or curriculum design because they love teaching. But there are so many other opportunities that their skills can play into. Can you explain a little more about that?

Starr:
Sure. In the research for this book, I conducted a survey, and from that survey, I interviewed a whole bunch of different people who have left the classroom. There’s a playlist that goes with it, so those recorded interviews are also on YouTube. If there’s a job you’re interested in, you can hear someone talking about their work and get a better sense of whether it’s something you really want to do. I spoke to one person who was in charge of education in a correctional facility, similar to education in a regular school system but different because of the constraints of working with prisoners. Another person I interviewed does professional learning for banks in corporate America. There’s publishing, consulting, nonprofits—a lot of folks get into nonprofits because they love one part of their job and want to support more people in that one part. You could start a business that focuses on the thing you love. There are so many options out there; it’s just a matter of being free enough to invite other definitions of who you are. Teachers often see themselves as just teachers, and it breaks my heart when I hear that. There’s a whole world out there that needs those skills, and sometimes you just have to leave your current space to find something else. The worst-case scenario is that you try it, it doesn’t work out, and you go back to teaching. It’s okay to take a risk on yourself and try something new.
And then you just have to rip the Band-Aid off, unfortunately, and take the risk. If it doesn't work out, you'll always be able to go back to a school. Highly qualified teachers are always in demand, in my opinion. The book talks about this a lot—the skills that you acquire as an educator are extremely marketable everywhere. If you need a break from being in the classroom...

Vanessa:
I feel like a lot of teachers think that they're just going to come out of the classroom and, because they love teaching and that's what brought them joy, they want to move into instructional design or curriculum design. You were just talking about how there are so many other opportunities and options that their skills can play into. Can you explain a little more about that?

Starr:
Sure. In the research for this book, I did the survey that I mentioned earlier, and from that survey, I interviewed a whole bunch of different people who have left the classroom. There's a playlist that goes with it, so all of those recorded interviews are also on YouTube. If there's a job you're interested in, you can hear someone talking about their work and get a better sense of whether or not it's something you really want to do. I spoke to one person who was in charge of education in a correctional facility—she was a superintendent for inmates, which I thought was really interesting. It’s very similar to education in a regular school system, but different because of the constraints of working with prisoners. I spoke to someone else who does professional learning for banks in corporate America, which is also very different but similar in some ways. There's publishing, consulting, nonprofits—many folks get into nonprofits afterward because they love one part of their job and want to support more people in that area. How could you do that? You could start a business that just focuses on the thing that you love. You could get involved with professional organizations. I feel like there's a lot of opportunities. It's just a matter of being free enough to invite other definitions of who you are. I think as teachers, we often see ourselves as "just teachers," and it breaks my heart when I hear that. There is no such thing as "just a teacher." Teachers are superheroes, and you could spread that amazing ability and skill set in so many directions that could help people. Maybe you start working with adult learners, maybe in a senior citizen environment because you like working with the elderly, or maybe you go down to younger kids. You know what I mean? It doesn't have to be a traditional school environment to still make an impact.

Vanessa:
I love that there are so many different options. I know that personally, when I loved teaching, I was sad to leave it, but I felt very drawn and compelled to move into something where I was helping people. At the time, I moved into helping people get jobs. When I left that, I began helping teachers find their next steps, and that has become quite a passion of mine lately. I love the things in your book that help us to get there, so I'm definitely going to be adding some blurbs and links so that my clients can find your book. For the podcast, I'm going to make sure to put in the show notes how they can find you, connect with you on LinkedIn, watch your TED talk, and purchase not just this book but also your other books. Not everyone is ready to leave the classroom yet; a lot of people are just exploring the "what if" in the back of their minds.

Starr:
I'm curious, since this is something you do all the time, what are some of the jobs that teachers come to you about? How do you help them assess what the next best move is? Obviously, we can't predict the future 10 years down the line, but what's the next best move?

Vanessa:
One of the things we do is dive deeply into what they're interested in. For some people, it's very easy, and for others, it's very difficult. I had one teacher tell me how much they enjoyed the graphic design work during the pandemic when they were creating online materials. They’ve been pursuing studies and gaining certifications in that direction. We look at their interests, talents, and skills, and we take all the quizzes—because quizzes are fun, yes! We use that information to develop where they might want to head next. Sometimes that involves taking a course here or there; it almost never involves going all the way back to college. Most certifications you can get online, often at low or no cost. It's a very personalized, one-to-one process because, as you mentioned earlier, we also have to help them reconstruct who they are, recognizing that they've never been "just a teacher."

Starr:
It's so true. It blows me away how frequently teachers don't recognize the myriad of skill sets they have really become experts in just by going to work every single day. Whether it's managing a room full of middle schoolers or younger kids, becoming an expert in learning new things so that you can teach them in a way kids can absorb, or honing communication and leadership skills. Being in the classroom really prepares you for being a presenter or speaker, and sometimes a writer if that's something you like to do. Maybe you're already blogging in your classroom and sharing things, and you could definitely monetize those kinds of things if that's what you want. Or you could share your ideas on Teachers Pay Teachers as an entrepreneurial move. I think that's awesome. As a former curriculum leader, I'm not always as excited about my teachers buying things from other teachers on there and not making them their own, but there's definitely room for that. For that graphic design person you mentioned, as someone who worked as a journalism teacher, I learned so much about social media, building a website, and what it means to do all those things because I had to teach my students when the world was starting to change in that direction. There was no social media when I started teaching—I'm aging myself here. That was just not a thing in years one to six of my career. Then Twitter happened, and man, did that change everything for a little bit. Now, sadly, it's kind of off the table, but you know, lots of things.

Vanessa:
Social media is definitely a Wild, Wild West. Oh my goodness. 
 
So what is one big takeaway that you would like for my listeners to get from your book?

Starr:
This book isn't telling you to leave the classroom—I want to be super clear about that. I don't want people to buy the book and say, "How could she be advocating for folks leaving education when education needs the people who are in it?" For me, this book is more like a love letter to the classroom. There's a part of my heart that will always be in the classroom, and I still believe there might be a point where I go back when the time is right or the right situation arises. Or I could start my own school—who knows. But what I want people to get from this book is that they have the right and permission to make choices that make them happy. I just want folks to know that there are more options out there than what you might be aware of. I didn't even get all of them in the book—I tried to group them so that if you were interested in certain things, it would be easier to navigate to specific chapters. My hope is that this will help you reconnect with your passion and maybe find something you enjoy doing as you build back from burnout or whatever lack of interest you're experiencing right now.

Vanessa:
One of the late chapters in your book—actually, it's the last chapter—talks about leaving a legacy, which I think all of us want to do. I think teachers are in it for the long game; we're trying to make better humans in the future. I want to read your words back to you. You wrote, "Regardless of what career path you choose, it is unlikely that you will stay with the same job or career path for your entire adult life. Gone are the days when folks found the perfect career and job and then started and ended their careers in the same place. As a matter of fact, education may be the last harbinger of this phenomenon." That's pretty powerful, actually, and I feel it gives people permission to explore.

Starr:
Yeah, I hope so. The unknown is very scary, and like I said, education is this super safe place where, even though it's hard, it's very stable. The pay is stable, the benefits are good, and you have all the things that make life a little easier. But it's very easy to get into a rut when you're met with the same things every single day. So I hope everyone feels empowered to do what they really want to do and understands that sometimes it takes one or two tries before you land in the right place.

Vanessa:
I have one last question for you. What is it that you hope your legacy will be?

Starr:
This is something I've thought a lot about. I've been in education now for 23 years, and I want people to remember that I was passionate about learning and that I gave my all to whomever my audience was. I certainly hope that some of my more off-the-beaten-track ideas about grading and assessment take hold. Maybe one day, I'm hopeful that the system as we see it now could be completely transformed. If I could have a small part in that, that would be a great legacy to have. If I could touch a few lives in a very profound way, then I know I've done what I'm supposed to do.

Vanessa:
Thank you very much. I really appreciate the time you've taken to come on Teachers in Transition today. Everyone, this is Starr Sackstein, and her book is Making an Impact Outside of the Classroom. All the links will be in the show notes and the following newsletter. Thank you very much, Starr.

Starr:
Thank you so much, Vanessa.

 
 I’ll take this moment to remind everyone listening that if you’ve lost your joy in the classroom, this is a great book to explore some of your options.  If you’re ready to take the big step to leave the classroom and feel overwhelmed trying to navigate the process from education to something completely different  feel free to sign up for a free Discovery call and we can have that conversation to see if this is right for you.  I have a link in my show notes that you can book directly, or you can find it at teachersintransition.com/calendar.  
 
 I’d love to invite you over to the Teachers in Transition Podcast club, or to peruse the website at Teachers in Transition dot com.   I’m happy to listen to your concerns and offer suggestions or just a friendly ear. 
 
 
 Remember: The best time to start working on your transition plan was about six months ago.  The next best time is now!  In fact, this is a great time to start working on that exit strategy because a corporate job hunt typically takes a lot longer than the standard teacher summer frenzy that we’re all used to. I would love to help you.  
 
 Give me a call. 

That’s the podcast for today! If you liked this podcast, tell a friend, and don’t forget to rate and review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Tune in weekly to Teachers in Transition where we discuss Job Search strategies as well as stress management techniques.  And I want to hear from you!  Please reach out and leave me a message at Teacher in transition coaching at gmail dot com.  You can also leave a voicemail or text at 512-640-9099. 

I’ll see you here again next week and remember – YOU are amazing!